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a christingale is an orange tied with red ribbon to symbolise god's love for the world, with a lighted candle placed in the top to represent god's light in the universe. the kids at school are making them and on sunday some of them are going to st mary's church to display their fruity celebrations of god.

[though the damage has already been done, i have removed the rest of this message}

I've always admired your tactfulness. Maybe God isn't an interventionist? Like, he just starts it going then sits back and watches.

I'm afraid I have found what you said highly offensive, Fez.

Everyone is entitled to their opinions - but it is religious intolerance such as this that has caused many of the world's problems.

I do not mock or criticise other's beliefs and I would appreciate similar courtesey.

comments withdrawn

Fez wrote:don't hide behind the line of religious intolerance - you are free to believe whatever you want, but don't even dare to try and make this an issue that is out of bounds, because it's that kind of blind faith i can't stand. i have spent the greater part of my life questioning myself and wider religious beliefs trying to make some sort of sense out of it, but what possible chance is there for any kind of progress when the merest nay-saying is thrown down as blastphamous? blind faith without question is the worst kind of ignorance, it weakens otherwise intelligent minds and corrupts the system it is trying to protect.

Religious Intolerance is a word that is banded around alot. I personally think that Lizzie is just as intitled to her opinions as you. The way an opinion is phrased is the important thing. Lizzie is intitled to have faith and it does not need antagonistic questioning on any level.

Fez wrote:like any man, god has to be just as open to praise for his achievements as damned for his failings. christainity doesn't deserve respect if it can't take the flak, nor will it find strength if it can't look at itself and identify problems or even progress in a modern world if it can't question itself and find the answers.

This assumes that 'God' is a man. I don't think a cat is held up in court on Murder charges for killing a bird, the same logic applies to other species. African tribes are not in court for eating 'Evil' people. . . . It is a topic of what a society deems normality.

Fez wrote:my point with the christingdale was simple - if we praise god for what is good, surely responsibility is equaly his for what is bad. if your faith can take what i say as simple criticism of an obvious hypocracy then surely it will already be stronger because of it. if it can't, then it weakens what you are trying to protect.

bishop desmond tuttu:
"we must question what is said to be the truth, otherwise we dedicate ourselves to a lie."

A level of questioning is good. However, it is the persons responsibility to question not ours. I think there is always a problem with Religious arguments, they then to be very personal and it is hard to keep the discussion objective.

I think that this discussion has reached the end of its useful life but I am willing to let it continue on a more respectful tone. If it needs stating again please be nice on these boards.

I would actually be in favour of locking the thread, then debating any specific issues in seperate topics, eg "is God interventionist?", "is fear of death the primary motivator in religion?", "Old Testament: creation myth or truth?". One topic on it just spirals out of control. If we can salvage it from a start like that, I will be impressed, and I can also see why religion and politics were banned in gentlemen's clubs.

i love christianity - it's so hypocritical i just have to laugh.

I'm afraid I agree with Lizzie on this one. How can you be so disrespectful and even to some extent blind to the offensiveness of such a statment? Yes you are entitled to an opinion but I don't think you have any right to flaunt your opinion in such an offensive manner.

I won't resort to aggresive and barbaric name-calling but I ask you to refrain. You have a right to believe what you want, so quite frankly I would expect the same right. Yes I am Christian. I think it is behaviour like this that causees such extremism. I can almost gaurantee you wouldn't laugh at say Islam for example, or taoism. I don't know if you know what taoism is. Mike probably does, judging from his avatar but thats another matter.

On a lighter note the Bible does say God created man in his image",Mike so this to me means there is reason to believe God may indeed be man or at least in the form of. Not to say this is entirely true but like I said each to their own. For those that want to argue if there is a God or higher being, answer me this:

How come Christianity, Islam, and Taoism all agree that there is such. God, Allah, Tao? (I apologise if I am confusing religions here but I think this is accurate). How is it that all these people have been 'fooled' into such similar beliefs, when they are all from different cultures and backgrounds? I think it is highly unlikely they could all get it so wrong.

As for science well....when christianity spread it became very popular and was widely believed, (the same is true for other such religions this is just an example), yet now that science has come about the same pattern is recurring.

But I do agree this is too much of an in-depth topic for one comprehensive thread.

At the personal request of the original Author I have locked this thread. I believe his intentions were good and I hope we can all understand that our posts can take an unintentional tone.

Thanks.