Road Congestions Charges

[Andy]

That is all well and good JohnK but what if you don't know where you are going and keep on leaving and entering zones. In Singapore you get charged each time you enter a zone so someone with no local knowledge is screwed. Sorry, but I'm with JohnR on this one because it could mean the death of jobs/livelihoods, etc for the smaller companies (no offence intended JohnR) and for the sake of a few trees and the ability to walk in a pedestrianised zone is wrong. There are pros and cons for this scheme but in my mind, one thing is clear, certain individuals need compensation/special rates so that it does not have a negative impact.

BTW, has anyone noticed in pedestrianised sections that the majority of people still hug the original pavement?

[Mike]

BTW, has anyone noticed in pedestrianised sections that the majority of people still hug the original pavement?

That is because my mother always told me that the road was dangerous and I needed to avoid it at all costs.

[stimpsonslostson]

where I grew up there were seldom any cars in the roads... so I STILL walk down the middle given half a chance!
It is weird tho. People get so programmed that they find it difficult to cope in new situations.
p

[Mike]

Read my post about IE6 (in the Firefox 2 & 3 thread) people are still not upgrading. . . . i mean come on. It is funny at AWA, they have just upgraded the cad package, it is exactly the same but buttons have short-cuts and people are complaining that it looks different. I mean come on!

[John Knight]

That is all well and good JohnK but what if you don't know where you are going and keep on leaving and entering zones.

Thats why there is a maximum charge for any given day and the only way you could get that would be to cross both zones on the way into town in the morning rushhour, and then cross both zones in the evening on the way out of town again during rush hour. Crossing any zone after the charging period is over is free and they apply "tidally" i.e with the direction of flow of the bulk of the traffic. For example someone who lived in the city centre and drove out to wilmslow each morning in rush hour would pay nothing. On the other hand if I drove to work from my home in north manchester I would incur the full charge, which isn't going to happen because I will either be catching the train or hopefully by the time charging is introduced, cycling to work.


As for shops and businesses failing on pedestrianised streets I have never heard so much twaddle in my whole like. Of course silly me, Market st is lined empty shops, and all the businesses around picadilly gardens, albert square, st annes square, parsonage gardens, cross st (effectivelty pedestrianised by bollards admittedly busses stil run along here) are bankrupt. NOT!

[Andy]

I never said they were bankrupt did I? Read it again. Whilst on this topic, the reason they are not bankrupt is because most of them are big companies and the established small business exist because they are located in a desirable location and have a loyal customer fanbase.

My main point was not about them being bankrupt, my main point was that smaller businesses will find it harder tham ever to start up in or around Manchester because payment of trade is likely to increase and people are unlikely to go to Manchester for a 'browse' and a bit of spending. I like John Lewis, etc but I do like the odd random shop that is run by people who love what they are doing. The eccentricity of some bookstore openers is marvellous and I love visiting these stores. I think it would be a shame for a city to totally lose this aspect as it would mean that everywhere would be the same and everywhere would sell the same thing which would be dull.

The other point that I was placing across was that if this scheme was to be done across the entire country (which I am certain it will within the next 20 years if it is a success) certain individuals will suffer and certain jobs will go unless a system is made for them. I think there should be.

[mr_e]

Just to clarify, Andy, what do you mean by the phrase "payment of trade"? That isn't making any sense at the moment, but it is fairly late so may just be me.

To be honest, most people in south Manchester have fairly good transport public transport links to the city centre, until you get maybe a mile or two beyond the ring road, so casual trips aren't an issue (but buying solid wood tables etc... point taken). North Manchester is an entirely different story from the sounds of it: if public transport is that terrible from there that you wouldn't feel able to visit then something obviously needs to be done about it. Or drive in at non-peak times.

People will adapt pretty quickly, especially if it's introduced nationally. We tend to do that, even if we moan about it for a while. My biggest fear is that the Trafford Centre will do quite well out of it (I'm biased, as I hate out-of-town shopping centres, along with car-orientated town planning).

I was also under the impression that most of the improvements to the transport system will actually take place before charging is introduced, which is excellent news.

[Mike]

I believe that the Trafford Centre will start to do a validation system for free parking. Of course you will have to buy something for the shops to want to validate your extra fee for driving there. Obviously it would have to then be done on a ticket entry system (even if only to track the time you entered the shopping centre).

He might have meant 'passing pavement trade' which is how I read it.

[Andy]

Just to clarify, Andy, what do you mean by the phrase "payment of trade"?

If you want a product to be delivered to you then you have to get someone to do it. With congestion charges on top of delivery I presumed that companies will raise the price of goods/cost of delivering items. To small businesses I can see this having a negative effect in two ways. 1) extra cost of getting items. 2) loss of customers who don't want to pay congestion charges and can't be arsed travelling in on the train/buses.

I have no idea what is meant by ''passing pavement trade''.

Most of the changes are scheduled to take place before it occurs. They have said constantly on the radio that they will be investing in more public services and school buses. My school is lucky to have a decent and pretty efficient system whereas most don't in this area.

[johnriley1uk]

The trouble is it's the little things that aren't thought about and which make life much harder than it needs to be.

For example, Sue forgot something today so on my way I called in at the Trafford centre to drop it off at her new place of work. Slight detour, park, quick walk, back to car and off again. Total time 10 minutes tops and no real cost.

So if I had to pay a congestion charge that increases to park, pay for ticket, deliver item, etc. Now we have added the cost maybe of a Congestion charge and a car park ticket to the exercise. OK maybe I could claim it back from a purchase in a shop, but I don't actually want anything, that's not why I'm there. So do I buy something for the sake of it just to get the refund? All I'm saying is that it complicates something that is currently very easy. And what is the benefit? Actually nothing as we already know that this will not make one jot of difference to global warming or congestion or anything else.

What it might do is to help make up for the lost revenue from all the smokers who have given up....

[John Knight]

I understand the argument that many hauliers and couriers will have to add money to the cost of their services but do not think that this is going to be an extra £8.00 on each delivery. Surely it ould only be an extra £8 per day spread across all their city centre deliveries and I am sure that recent fuel price hikes have had much more of an effect than that already.

I also agree that nation wide charging is enevitable and likely to cause serious problems for many people, I would imagine one of the hardest groups to be hit will be the Rep's. Maybe we will actually just embrace more modern technologies such as video conferencing etc that will reduce the number of journeys people have to make. who knows, but we need to do something to reduce this nations reliance on king car.

Unfortunately I cannot see how we can get people out of their cars and onto public transport with carrot alone. We need the stick whether it is simply pricing people off the road with fuel duty or with congestion charging. I think a lot of people use the car through habbit, convienince and a fair dollop of laziness, I know lots of people who live on perfectly good transoprt routes yet because they have a 10 minute walk to the station in the morning can't be arsed. So instead they get in there cars and sit in traffic for half an hour, I don't understand this I would much rather catch the train and sit with a cup of coffe and a news paper rather than do an hours concentrating before work and an extra hour after.

[John Knight]

What it might do is to help make up for the lost revenue from all the smokers who have given up....

I am still trying to stay firmly on non-smoking wagon but its quiet difficult. I do think it's funny after years of hearing how much smokers were costing the NHS. Now everyones crying foul because we (smokers) are quitting and paying less tax. So what was the reality? Were smokers clogging up the NHS or PROPPING up the NHS.

[johnriley1uk]

Did someone say £8 per day? Hang on, it started at £2, then £3.50, then £5, so where did £8 come from?

Just wait and see how much gets charged and prepare to be horrified at what the beaurocrats turn a seemingly benign idea into.

There are always counter-arguments to everything of course, so just to put a contrary view on an imaginary 30 minutes into work, I'd actually rather be in my own car, deciding on my own comfortable temperature, listening to my new CD and I would find that relaxing. It all depends on what you like and I personally don't like stuffy unventilated germ-ridden forms of public transport.

Idealised public transport might be something else, but we won't ever have it.

[John Knight]

£8 was just a random number fo sake of example.

[johnriley1uk]

Well that's a relief!