A question for Fez, open to all in case it generates anything of general interest.
Drawing on your knowledge of Poetry, a subject I am developing my interest in.
Am I correct in thinking that "Blank Verse" is a form of poetry where it is not necessary to have lines rhyming? And if so, does the work become poetry because of its rhythm? I'm reading one called "Salaman and Absal" at the moment, which has these non-rhyming sections that flow absolutely superbly, so I presume the art form is in that flow of language?
Also, if I wanted to take some sort of course to improve my awareness of the subject, where would be the place to start looking?
Anyone please answer as you will, but I addressed this to Fez as I know he studied the subject.
:)
A Question for Fez
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johnriley1uk
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I shall doff my English teacher hat, even though it's saturday.
Blank verse is in fact Iambic Pentameter, which is poetry that features lines of five iambs, or feet. Each line has these feet which feature a pattern of unstressed and stressed syllables. In blank verse you will find 10 syllables (5 pairs) per line. For example (from GCSE coursework with Year 10, Romeo and Juliet):
"Believe me love, it was the nightingale"
Read this, go a bit over the top on your natural emphasis and you should hear the unstressed/stressed pattern.
Shakespeare often chooses to rhyme at the end of a scene or when he wants to signify something coming to a point/or a close. E.g.
"For never was a story of more woe,
Than this of Juliet and her Romeo".
Still iambic pentameter (blank verse); also rhyming.
Count the number of syllables in your poem. if it's not 10 syllables (5 feet) it might be a different meter, like tetrameter (4 feet).
As for courses, i'm not really sure. i'd probably go to a decent bookshop and get a dictionary of literary terms or one of those oxford dictionary ofs for poetry. Or try this website http://www.poetry-online.org/poetry-terms.htm.
Hope that's helpful - sorry if i've stolen your thunder, Fez
Blank verse is one of the commonest meters used in English poetry which does indeed refer to rhythm as opposed to rhyme. Shakespeare uses it throughout his work and, as a reader, you can recognise where the prose becomes poetry because it shifts into this meter; literally count the beats (syllables).Am I correct in thinking that "Blank Verse" is a form of poetry where it is not necessary to have lines rhyming? And if so, does the work become poetry because of its rhythm? I'm reading one called "Salaman and Absal" at the moment, which has these non-rhyming sections that flow absolutely superbly, so I presume the art form is in that flow of language?
Also, if I wanted to take some sort of course to improve my awareness of the subject, where would be the place to start looking?
Blank verse is in fact Iambic Pentameter, which is poetry that features lines of five iambs, or feet. Each line has these feet which feature a pattern of unstressed and stressed syllables. In blank verse you will find 10 syllables (5 pairs) per line. For example (from GCSE coursework with Year 10, Romeo and Juliet):
"Believe me love, it was the nightingale"
Read this, go a bit over the top on your natural emphasis and you should hear the unstressed/stressed pattern.
Shakespeare often chooses to rhyme at the end of a scene or when he wants to signify something coming to a point/or a close. E.g.
"For never was a story of more woe,
Than this of Juliet and her Romeo".
Still iambic pentameter (blank verse); also rhyming.
Count the number of syllables in your poem. if it's not 10 syllables (5 feet) it might be a different meter, like tetrameter (4 feet).
As for courses, i'm not really sure. i'd probably go to a decent bookshop and get a dictionary of literary terms or one of those oxford dictionary ofs for poetry. Or try this website http://www.poetry-online.org/poetry-terms.htm.
Hope that's helpful - sorry if i've stolen your thunder, Fez
The crazy gets claustrophobic!
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johnriley1uk
- Master of the West Wind
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no thunder stolen - i would have tried and failed to explain it in as accessible a way as you have, claire - that's why you teach this stuff and i only study it! i must comment and say i am always mystified by people who believe for some absurd reason that poetry must have a rhyming scheme - where does this notion come from, is it purely a layman's assumption like you must own an anorak to be a trainspotter?
as for studying the subject further, i couldn't manage to suggest anything beyond what your own research might bring up; it was part of my a-level and degree courses and i've had an interest in poetry since studying war poems at high school:
"if they ask why we died, tell them because our fathers lied."
- Siegfried Sasson
as far as reading up on poetry that defies convention, try the "wasteland" by T S Elliot - it did for poetry what "ulysess" by james joyce did for literature, although this may be a little hard going to start off with.
as for studying the subject further, i couldn't manage to suggest anything beyond what your own research might bring up; it was part of my a-level and degree courses and i've had an interest in poetry since studying war poems at high school:
"if they ask why we died, tell them because our fathers lied."
- Siegfried Sasson
as far as reading up on poetry that defies convention, try the "wasteland" by T S Elliot - it did for poetry what "ulysess" by james joyce did for literature, although this may be a little hard going to start off with.
I came, I saw, I bought the T-shirt
Just tried reading the first part of that...yes, it is hard going. Appear to be a couple of bits in German and French too. I'll find the patience to read it and persevere at some point.Fez wrote:as far as reading up on poetry that defies convention, try the "wasteland" by T S Elliot - it did for poetry what "ulysess" by james joyce did for literature, although this may be a little hard going to start off with.
I too am I one of those people who never understands those who think poetry has to rhyme. Maybe it's based on childhood experience? After all, a lot of children's literature rhymes. And I've now learnt what blank verse means. Yay!
I remember having to study 'The Wasteland' for my degree. My goodness, it was tough. Everytime we thought we had finished it there was another avenue to explore. Writing an essay on it in 2,500 words was impossible because I had to leave so much out. My personal favourite section is 'III - The Fire Sermon'. Truly amazing stuff.
Claire, that was an excellent description. I must say that having had to teach Shakespeare I have learnt so much more about it than I ever did in my degree and for that I must say, I appreciate teaching. The one section I really like from Shakespeare is Jacques speech in 'As You Like It' - 'The Seven Ages Of Man' towards the end of Act 2.
Fez, I completely agree with you - why does everyone believe poetry has to rhyme? When the kids say it to me it really irritates me. The daft thing is though is that after you get past this barrier they love it. Before this I have to put up with ''I can't do it''. ''What rhymes with **** Sir?'' - etc, etc, etc. I also like doing war poetry with them - especially Wilfred Owen - some of his stuff is ace. The 'other cultures' poetry is also good - I like teaching ''Nothing's changed'' by Tutamkhulu Afrika mainly because at the end I tell them he is not black or South African, which shocks them.
Some of my favourite poetry is by Dylan Thomas - 'And Death Shall Have No Dominion' is a particular favourite. As is 'Do Not Go Gentle Into That Good Night' simply for the last line. I think it is wonderful. But then again I love Dylan Thomas, mainly because of 'Under Milk Wood' and his wonderful use of language.
What is everybody else's favourite poems/poets, etc.
Claire, that was an excellent description. I must say that having had to teach Shakespeare I have learnt so much more about it than I ever did in my degree and for that I must say, I appreciate teaching. The one section I really like from Shakespeare is Jacques speech in 'As You Like It' - 'The Seven Ages Of Man' towards the end of Act 2.
Fez, I completely agree with you - why does everyone believe poetry has to rhyme? When the kids say it to me it really irritates me. The daft thing is though is that after you get past this barrier they love it. Before this I have to put up with ''I can't do it''. ''What rhymes with **** Sir?'' - etc, etc, etc. I also like doing war poetry with them - especially Wilfred Owen - some of his stuff is ace. The 'other cultures' poetry is also good - I like teaching ''Nothing's changed'' by Tutamkhulu Afrika mainly because at the end I tell them he is not black or South African, which shocks them.
Some of my favourite poetry is by Dylan Thomas - 'And Death Shall Have No Dominion' is a particular favourite. As is 'Do Not Go Gentle Into That Good Night' simply for the last line. I think it is wonderful. But then again I love Dylan Thomas, mainly because of 'Under Milk Wood' and his wonderful use of language.
What is everybody else's favourite poems/poets, etc.
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johnriley1uk
- Master of the West Wind
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Just to be different, I've started on Persian poetry, but the reason for that is probably clear from other threads. Presently I'm also bidding on eBay for some Crabbe and I hope to look at Milton as well. Also on the "hit list" are Tennyson and I suppose inevitably Shakespeare....The 'other cultures' poetry is also good
I think there could be a lifetime in all this. It's a sobering thought that James Spedding spent 40 years producing his evaluation of Bacon (7 immense volumes), and that has nothing to do with the previous thread on bacon sandwiches!
Seriously, thanks for the insight everyone.
WH Auden - Oh Tell Me The Truth About Love, Funeral Blues, The Unknown Citizen, The More Loving One.Andy wrote:What is everybody else's favourite poems/poets, etc.
Rudyard Kipling - Prodigal Son
Unknown Jacobian Poet (featured in norton's anthology) - Love Me Little, Love Me Long
T S Elliot - The Love Song of J. Alfred Prufrock, What The Thunder Said (the Wasteland)
I came, I saw, I bought the T-shirt
Favourite poems...where to start? 
Top of the list would probably be 'Remember' by Christina Rossetti. :) I like 'To His Coy Mistress' by Andrew Marvell (Had we but world enough and time, this coyness lady were no crime...)
Rupert Brooke is another one - i like his love poetry, although obviously there is the iconic: The Soldier, 'If i should die, think only this of me: that there's some corner of a foreign field that is forever England.'
I think i must teach the same syllabus as Andy - we do the poetry from different cultures too. Half-caste by John Agard is fantastic - he writes about half-caste symphonies by Tchaikovsky because of a piano's black and white keys. Mid term break by Seamus Headey would definitely be in my top 5 as well. I enjoyed Sylvia Plath's Ariel at uni.
She walks in beauty (Byron), Not Waving but Drowning (Stevie Smith), Jabberwocky (Lewis Carroll) or Warning (Jenny Joseph) - I have eclectic poetry tastes and most of my books are in fact anthologies! :D
Top of the list would probably be 'Remember' by Christina Rossetti. :) I like 'To His Coy Mistress' by Andrew Marvell (Had we but world enough and time, this coyness lady were no crime...)
Rupert Brooke is another one - i like his love poetry, although obviously there is the iconic: The Soldier, 'If i should die, think only this of me: that there's some corner of a foreign field that is forever England.'
I think i must teach the same syllabus as Andy - we do the poetry from different cultures too. Half-caste by John Agard is fantastic - he writes about half-caste symphonies by Tchaikovsky because of a piano's black and white keys. Mid term break by Seamus Headey would definitely be in my top 5 as well. I enjoyed Sylvia Plath's Ariel at uni.
She walks in beauty (Byron), Not Waving but Drowning (Stevie Smith), Jabberwocky (Lewis Carroll) or Warning (Jenny Joseph) - I have eclectic poetry tastes and most of my books are in fact anthologies! :D
The crazy gets claustrophobic!
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johnriley1uk
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Here's a very early poem that the poet made no great claims for, but which I like for its simplicity and quiet charm:
?Tis a dull sight
To see the year dying,
When winter winds
Set the yellow wood sighing:
Sighing, oh! Sighing.
When such a time cometh,
I do retire
Into an old room
Beside a bright fire:
O, pile a bright fire!
And there I sit
Reading old things,
Of knights and lorn damsels,
While the wind sings ---
O, drearily sings!
I never look out
Nor attend to the blast;
For all to be seen
Is the leaves falling fast:
Falling, falling!
Bur close at the hearth,
Like a cricket, sit I,
Reading of summer
And chivalry ---
Gallant chivalry!
Then with an old friend
I talk of our youth ---
How ?twas gladsome, but often
Foolish, forsooth:
But gladsome, gladsome!
Or to get merry
We sing some old rhyme,
That made the wood ring again
In summer time ---
Sweet summer time!
Then go we to smoking,
Silent and snug:
Nought passes between us,
Save a brown jug ---
Sometimes!
And sometimes a tear
Will rise in each eye,
Seeing the two old friends
So merrily ---
So merrily!
And ere to bed
Go we, go we,
Down on the ashes
We kneel on the knee,
Praying together!
Thus, then, live I,
Till, ?mid all the gloom,
By heaven! The bold sun
Is with me in the room,
Shining, shining!
Then the clouds part,
Swallows soaring between;
The spring is alive,
And the meadows are green!
I jump up, like mad,
Break the old pipe in twain,
And away to the meadows,
The meadows again!
-Edward FitzGerald, 1830
?Tis a dull sight
To see the year dying,
When winter winds
Set the yellow wood sighing:
Sighing, oh! Sighing.
When such a time cometh,
I do retire
Into an old room
Beside a bright fire:
O, pile a bright fire!
And there I sit
Reading old things,
Of knights and lorn damsels,
While the wind sings ---
O, drearily sings!
I never look out
Nor attend to the blast;
For all to be seen
Is the leaves falling fast:
Falling, falling!
Bur close at the hearth,
Like a cricket, sit I,
Reading of summer
And chivalry ---
Gallant chivalry!
Then with an old friend
I talk of our youth ---
How ?twas gladsome, but often
Foolish, forsooth:
But gladsome, gladsome!
Or to get merry
We sing some old rhyme,
That made the wood ring again
In summer time ---
Sweet summer time!
Then go we to smoking,
Silent and snug:
Nought passes between us,
Save a brown jug ---
Sometimes!
And sometimes a tear
Will rise in each eye,
Seeing the two old friends
So merrily ---
So merrily!
And ere to bed
Go we, go we,
Down on the ashes
We kneel on the knee,
Praying together!
Thus, then, live I,
Till, ?mid all the gloom,
By heaven! The bold sun
Is with me in the room,
Shining, shining!
Then the clouds part,
Swallows soaring between;
The spring is alive,
And the meadows are green!
I jump up, like mad,
Break the old pipe in twain,
And away to the meadows,
The meadows again!
-Edward FitzGerald, 1830